>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Guilherme Blanco [mailto:guilhermeblanco@[...].com] 
>  Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 8:21 PM
>  To: David Coallier
>  Cc: David Zulke; Dmitry Stogov; Arpad Ray; Hans Lellelid; PHP 
>  internals
>  Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Simple Namespace Proposal
>  
>  
>  > >
>  > > 2) In short and clear, why are braces not being used ? 
>  C++, C# uses 
>  > > it. (Short answer and if the answer is "Developer didn't 
>  want to do 
>  > > it..." just say "Usual"
>  >
>  > We are not C++. Python doesn't use braces.
>  > The only neediness for braces is placing several namespaces 
>  into one 
>  > file, but one of the goal of our concept is avoiding this.
>  
>  
>  Your answered like "We are not like C#, but we are like 
>  Python.". I'm not the one that will point that Python always 
>  try to be a unique language or will criticize you.

Ok. Look into Pascal, Ada, Modula, Oberon, ...
All of them allows only one module per file.
Java even allows one class per file.
 
>  I've read dozen of PHP books, and what I suggested earlier is 
>  only based on what I've read. The topic is always entitled as 
>  "block scope". Since namespace is a block scope too, so it's 
>  a commom sense. It's easier to read, easier to understand, etc.

"Block scope" has nothing common with namespaces and classes.
Class declaration uses braces but it doesn't mean that it is a "block
scope".

>  Your short answer is "no, because it's not needed, since 
>  there'll be only one namespace per file."
>  
>  It doesn't matter is one, two or hundreds namespaces are 
>  defined in a single file, but the KIS idea must remain. 
>  Stanislav mentioned that file names, directories, etc do not 
>  require braces.
>  
>  Ok, but we are not talking about File System, we are talking 
>  about language structure and standards. PHP uses braces to 
>  define new scope, like block scope, loops, if-else, switch, 
>  function, classes, etc.

Again. "block scope" or "block statement" may be used instead of statement,
but it doesn't relay with class and even function.

>  But namespaces are different!
>  Why different? It's another language functionality, as all 
>  others I mentioned. So, let's change the PHP to allow only 
>  one class per file, and remove the braces' need too. Classes 
>  are different too. Or maybe better... only one namespace per 
>  file and only in one file. Namespaces are different, as you 
>  said! If PHP supports more than one namespace per file, why 
>  not provide it to developers? It's a functionality, not a 
>  bug. Do not restrict functionalities because you do not like them.

Namespaces are really different. They like packages in Java and one file
cannot belong to several packages.

>  I'm repeating... it's up to the PHP developer decide if he 
>  wants this or that way to code. Currently he's able to define 
>  more than one class in a single file. Ok, I don't do it, and 
>  will do one namespace per file (and continue one class per 
>  file), but I don't think that this restriction is really necessary.
>  
>  That's my final point, and my last try to talk about braces. 
>  Seems you do not like external ideas.

I developed concepts with braces and without and after thoughts and
discussions decide that having braces makes only mess.

Thanks. Dmitry.

>  
>  > > I'll give you an example... PHP Doctrine package has a 
>  lot of files, 
>  > > hundreds... there is a way to compile it in a single 
>  file, to save 
>  > > some memory usage for including these files. Including a 
>  single file
>  >
>  > Putting all code together in the same file rarely saves any 
>  > significant amount of memory and leads to a very messy code. Of 
>  > course, it's your application and your decision, but I 
>  don't see any 
>  > reason to promote such style on the language level. Anyway, 
>  if you can 
>  > do with everything in single file, I think having single namespace 
>  > won't hurt.
>  
>  
>  It saves the time needed to include all the files and also 
>  the memory that it saves for calling require_once, 
>  include_once, etc. Forget this, it was only one illustration 
>  that such optimizations (what Doctrine call as compile into a 
>  single file) does. You keep all the hundred files but you 
>  have one "compiled" with all the code.
>  
>  
>  > >  2 - Overwrite will be implemented?
>  > > Something like: overwrite function strlen( ... ) { ... }
>  >
>  > What it's supposed to do?
>  
>  I think it's overload. Someone mentioned earlier and I was 
>  curious if you implemented this or not.
>  
>  
>  > > <?php
>  > > class Bar { ... }
>  > >
>  > > <?php
>  > > namespace Foo {
>  > >  class Bar { ... }
>  > > }
>  > >
>  > > <?php
>  > > import Foo;
>  >
>  > For 100th time, import Foo is a no-op. I'm thinking about 
>  prohibiting 
>  > it at all... If you do import Foo::bar you'll get an error 
>  if Bar is 
>  > already defined.
>  
>  I was supposed to suggest triggering a E_NOTICE that Bar is 
>  already defined and instantiate the Bar class of "global". 
>  But if you want something more radical... =)
>  
>  
>  > > 4 - Will namespaces support anything else than functions 
>  and classes 
>  > > (like constants, for example)?
>  >
>  > Not likely, since there's no such thing as free-form 
>  constant. Though, 
>  > in fact, we might add one (i.e. const X = 'foo' which is define('X',
>  > 'foo')) ... But, if you need a constant, why not put it 
>  into a class?
>  
>  Bad example I did. I was supposed to ask for namespace level 
>  variables. Not in global scope, not in class scope. =)
>  
>  
>  
>  I have another questions regarding namespace support... well, 
>  about function support.
>  
>  1- How will is_a, instanceof, will behave in this situation?
>  
>  $a = new NS1::SubNS1::MyClass();
>  
>  echo is_a( $a, "MyClass" ); ????? true/false?
>  echo is_a( $a, "NS1::SubNS1::MyClass" ); ???
>  
>  
>  2- Will exist some namespace specific functions? Examples:
>  
>  $a = namespace_contains( "SomeClass" );
>  $b = namespace_exists( "NS1" );
>  $c = is_a_namespace_class ( $NS1ObjString );
>  // ......
>  
>  
>  
>  Best regards,
>  
>  -- 
>  Guilherme Blanco - Web Developer
>  CBC - Certified Bindows Consultant
>  Cell Phone: +55 (16) 9166-6902
>  MSN: guilhermeblanco@[...].com
>  URL: http://blog.bisna.com
>  São Carlos - SP/Brazil
>  

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