Hello,

On 07/19/2004 12:32 AM, Curt Zirzow wrote:
> >>>If you pay more attention you may notice that I always say that it 
> >>>*sounds* like a PHP bug. I am not even saying that is necessarily a PHP 
> >>>bug.
> >>
> >>
> >>what ever you are trying to say about it being a bug or not, it is
> >>one of the worst ways i've ever seen anyone try to plug their site.
> >
> >Wanting or not, the PHP mail() function alone always had many, many 
> >bugs, as you may see here:
> >
> >http://bugs.php.net/search.php?cmd=display&status=All&bug_type%5B%5D=Mail+related
>  
>  
>  Ok so a lot of bugs have been submited, and I do notice that they
>  are either green or gray. Of which, in case you didn't read the
>  legend. green == CLOSED (aka resolved and fixed!!!) gray == bogus.
>  meaning the person was using the function improperly.
>  
>  One is currently assigned and is related to W32 with a 'rcpt to'
>  issue. The other *only* open one is complaining that the 5th
>  argument isn't working, and if you *look* closely at that open
>  ticket, I'm currently working with him to make sure it isn't a bug
>  with php.

Even if no open bugs means that the mail function of the latest PHP 
version does not have any bugs, it does not mean that all users are 
using the latest version.

Furthermore, no software can be guaranteed to be bug free, so the 
existance of unreported bugs or bugs that were reported but were marked 
as bogus because the developers could not have understood the reports 
very well or though they have fixed the bugs but just fixed the 
sympthomns, makes it perfectly valid to state that the PHP mail function 
may still have bugs that are not opened today.


> >Anyway, I was wondering why would you bother to fight my explanations 
> >with so much persistence. In the beginning, it seemed that you were not 
> >really aware of the problems, but then you finally revealed yourself 
> >when you showed when you said it upsets you that I am one of those 
> >people that "that try to plug their site".
>  
>  
>  I dont have a problem with Jason, Mr. Holmes, raditha or anybody
>  who wishes to plug their work. 
>  
>  The problem I have is someone falsely saying that php has a bug
>  somewhere and say that their nifty little class fixes the problem
>  when about 90% of the time it is due to the person not
>  understanding the STMP protocol.
>  
>  I fight your explanations because they simply are bogus and dont
>  have any substance.  You claim on about 90% of the replies you make
>  to people having problems with mail() that there is a problem with
>  php, without, and I reiterate again... knowing what version of PHP
>  they are using, what OS they are using, nor do you even take into
>  consideration of what MTA they are using. and unlike what you
>  suggested in one of your replies, MTA's differ greatly in their
>  behaviour and cause a lot of reasons as why mail() simply isn't
>  working.

As I explained before, it is not necessary to know in advance the 
version that the person is using to state by the presented sympthoms 
that the problem may be due to bugs in the mail function, present or 
past (it does not matter).

Another detail is that you are distorting what I say. Saying that it 
"sounds like a PHP mail function bug", is not the same as claiming "it 
is a PHP mail function bug". If you want to be taken with credibility, 
stop distorting what I say.


> >A quick search in Google for your name and it lead to this page.
>  
>  
>  ooh.. 
>  
>  
> >http://pear.php.net/user/curt
>  
>  
>  hah.. I didn't even know that existed.
>  
>  
> >Hey, you are a PEAR zealot! Now it makes all the sense of the world that 
> >you do not want me to lead people to the PHP Classes site. It seems you 
> >are one of those people that think of the PHP Classes site as a 
> >competitor of PEAR. I would not be surprised if you would enjoy if one 
> >day the PHP Classes site was shutdown so PEAR did not have any competitors!
>  
>  
>  Let me count how many packages i'm a maintainer of... lets see.. 0
>  + 0 makes ZERO!

Which is not a necessary condition to be a PEAR zealot.



>  Ok. now you are *trying* to attack me personally.  Why don't you

No, I am not. If you insisting view it that way to justify subsequent 
personal attacks directed to me, that is going to be your problem 
because I am not going to follow (un)justified attack tone.


>  look at all the google results to php-general and see how many
>  times you've seen me suggest PEAR as a solution. You will simply
>  find that I have suggested PEAR mabey 1 or 2 times out of the 3000 or
>  so posts on php-general.

Come on, you are not convincing anybody here. It is not a problem to be 
a PEAR zealot to me. Everybody has preferences. Choosing and recommended 
PEAR packages is not a problem to me, as long you really intend to 
resolve the users problems.


> >The PHP Classes site was not developed to compete with PEAR. 
>  
>  
>  read above. about how I am not at all affiliated with PEAR.

Please, do not pretend now that your complaint was not directed to my 
recommendation of classes in the PHP Classes.


> >As a matter of fact the PHP Classes site was created before PEAR with 
> >the specific intention to help me share many of my own classes so they 
> >could get as many testing as possible, helping me to improve them with 
> >bug reports and feature suggestions of their users.
>  
>  
>  and the saga continues...
>  
>  
>  
> >That is my benefit from bothering to spend so much time developing Open 
> >Source code and providing support to people that present problems that 
> >can be solved with classes that I wrote.
>  
>  
>  more saga and drama you insist on dragging into this trying to keep
>  you're self superiour to everone else.

Duh? Superior? Is that what this is all about? Do my messages make you 
look inferior? Come on, you ought to know me better in person to realize 
that your impression is completely mistaken.

Do you think that if I really wanted to make myself look superior I 
would bother to open a site that lets anybody contribute with any 
packages, even with similar packages, and now it has over 800 
contributing authors? If I really wanted to look superior, wouldn't it 
make more sense to not open the site for other contributing authors, or 
maybe make it difficult for other authors submit similar packages?



> >I don't know if this interests you, but some time ago I gave an 
> >interview to a russian PHP magazine regarding the PHP Classes, its 
> >history and initiatives:
> >
> >http://www.phpinside.net/docs/mlemos.html
>  
>  
>  oh. someone actually took the time and had an interview with you?
>  Even with these credentials your credibitly is still low, oh wait
>  this is just propoganda of your site that you somehow can't keep
>  out of your replies.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion about my person, but like I 
said, you do not know me enough to realize that your impression about my 
person and the interest of my work to the PHP community is more relevant 
than you can think of.

Anyway, I do not work in the benefit of the PHP community to gain your 
credibility. If you do not appreciate my work, fine. It is impossible to 
please everybody, so it is not important to me to turn your opinions 
about me.


> >So, it certainly does not bother that PEAR zealots and friends come to 
> >the mailing lists and help people recommending PEAR components that 
> >solve their problems, why does it bother that I come here and do the 
> >same suggesting components that I wrote that happen to be made available 
> >in the PHP Classes site (or not)?
>  
>   
>  Again, I dont and never use PEAR. I've been here for quite a
>  while and rarely have suggested to any one PEAR.  
>    
>  And after reading this I've come to the conclusion that you are the
>  one with the problem with someone suggesting anything other than
>  your site.  You had said nothing of the likes until you falsely
>  assumed I was a PEAR zealot

Erm... you have admited below that you recommended PEAR packages. Now 
you say that you never use PEAR. So you are saying you recommend PEAR 
packages that never used and you want us to think that you are not a 
PEAR zealot? humm... I am afraid that it is a little difficult now.

Anyway, you must admit that you were the one that complained about my 
recommendations of things that are found on my site. Even if you can 
convince us that your really not a PEAR zealot, complaining about my 
recommendations to use something on my site is a pattern of behavior of 
PEAR zealots that once in a while pop in to do as you did.


> >Better, if you have written any useful 
> >classes that could solve other people's problems, feel free to submit 
> >them to the PHP Classes site, even if you have contributed them to PEAR 
>  
>  
>  I wont contribute to your site, and you're doing a supper job
>  convincing me I should even consider it.

You are free to reconsider anytime you want. You are always welcome to 
join in as an user and maybe investigate whatever my classes do to 
overcome the mail function bugs. You do not need to tell me. You can 
always do like several people that want to peak anonymously and use 
unsuspected hotmail accounts to subscribe! ;-)


> >as well, and benefit from the feedback and recognition that you may get 
> >from sharing your work to the currently 170,000 subscribers of the site. 
> >Several PEAR related classes have been published there already.
> >
> >http://www.phpclasses.org/pear
> >
>  
>  
> >If you have written something innovating, you may even be nominated to 
> >the Innovation Award getting more recognition and prizes every month.
>  
>  
>  Ok. now I'm begining to think somehow one of your templated emails
>  got in here.  You're tone sure has changed and has gone toward's
>  promoting your site again.

You can think what you want. Good or bad, the site is open to anybody 
that wants to join voluntarily. You may not want to join, but I hope it 
does not upset you that others do it.


> >http://www.phpclasses.org/award/innovation
> >
> >I am serious, welcome aboard!
>  
>  
>  haha.. aboard the anti manuel lemo's bandwagon, of course.

May I send you an invitation in Orkut to join the PHP Classes site 
community there? I have sent so many invitations to the PHP Classes 
users that it would not be a problem to send one more to you! ;-)

Come on, you are wasting your time and efforts fighting the wrong person.

As I say, cooperating is better than competing. PHP has grown through a 
lot of cooperation between its members. Unfortunately not everybody is 
willing to cooperate because of technical differences of opinion that 
turn up into personal disgreements needlessly. Ok, we have to live with 
that too, but I think it would be better for the PHP community and its 
future if people could get over such personal disputes.



-- 

Regards,
Manuel Lemos

PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP
http://www.phpclasses.org/

PHP Reviews - Reviews of PHP books and other products
http://www.phpclasses.org/reviews/

Metastorage - Data object relational mapping layer generator
http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html

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