On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Kevin Altis wrote:

> And contrary to what we sophisticated users may think we are able to deal
> with in terms of different UIs, the fact is that we just get by, it isn't
> comfortable nor is it easy to adapt. You only have to listen to *nix geeks
> complain about not being able to figure out something simple on Windows or

Or, yes. But have you seen Windows "gurus" in UNIX CLUI ;-)

CLUI UNIX and GUI Windows are different at least in this:

- linguistical (verbal) vs. pictorial (visual)
- small efficient tools vs. large monstrous "killer apps"

I'd liked PythonCard to be following both smartly:

small efficient visual tools

-skip web sucks-

Probably I frequent wrong sites, because when I am pointed to something
else I could get Flash/lots of JavaScript etc and my lynx can't follow
links then.

And original WWW was not about wrapping links into Javascript.

> content mixed with code that can infect or trash your machine. It won't
> happen this year, and it probably won't happen next year, but it is already
> happening and apps beside the browser will be full citizens again.
> 
> I love the web and the communications capabilities it brings to my machine.
> It is more important than Visicalc, Lotus 1-2-3, or PageMaker (all killer

8-| PageMaker a killer app?!

> apps btw), but it is still primitive, partly due to a reliance on funky
> HTML, the browser wars, and the drive to have the browser do everything,
> when clearly the browser, despite the bloat, isn't very capable.

> > We have freedom to create a tool which could allow for experiments.
> 
> BTW, I'm not a dictator here. In some way, I'm probably acting as "fearless
> leader" for now, but this is open source, and we build consensus, not

We are in consensus. And sometimes consensus must be on one side
of the vision completely.

Once I and my friend (we were both small boys then) were both using the
same bike at the same time: my friend was steering and I pedalling. And we
once we had consensus over where to go: to the left or to forward, we
collided into the corner of a building...

That is why I suppress my desire to defend my vision of PythonCard loudly:
it is not good for the project and is not different enough.

> dictate what will be. If I say something will be such and such way, that is
> because I hate saying IMHO... and qualifying my point of view all the time.

That is what we all do here, IMHO ;-)

> I expect us to be adults and for everyone on the list to push back when they
> feel the need. Besides, if my point of view gets too far out of step with
> everyone else's I can always go off and follow my own vision, but because it
> is open source I won't be taking the bat and ball with me.

I've not understood what is "bat and ball", but probably I better
not arise too many disputes ;-)

It doesn't matter to me:

1- if we use wxWindows, Tk or whatelse
2- if we use pack and grid or place geomanagers, or absolute coords
3- if even PythonCard will have Windows' l&f
4- if we do not use XML in it's resource files
5- if we do not add persistence from the start
6- if we use or do not use Unicode (but see below)
7- if there will or will not be an abstraction level
  between user and wxWindows

What does matter is:

1- PythonCard does run on UNIX/Linux, not only under Windows
2- PythonCard is as simple as HyperCard while as powerful as Python
  and wxWindows combined
3- PythonCard's I18N will allow to use it at the schools
  in my country. (This is up to wxWindows, it seems)

Optionally, I'd liked:

1- PythonCard will be like HyperCard: no need to do the cycle:
   draw-> generate code->run
   but just:
   switch edit/run modes

2- PythonCard has transparent network capabilities
   at application level (PythonCard protocol), so the user
   will not need to bother with openurls and such to
   communicate between PythonCard stacks.
   (Object interaction via CORBA or the like)


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
--
_/ Russia _/ Karelia _/ Petrozavodsk _/ rnd@[...].. _/
_/ Friday, June 29, 2001 _/ Powered by Linux RedHat 6.2 _/
_/ "I failed attitude in school." _/