On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 08:38:21 +0000, Phlip wrote:

>  n/a wrote:
>  
> > hi, newbie so please be tolerant.... ;)
>  
>  Only if you promise to read every danged post you inspired.
>  
> > i need to start to learn a programming language to be able to develop
> > custom aps to be applied to a variety of purposes but mainly 1) financial
> > data modeling--including graphics and data handling via database queries,
> > etc.; and 2) more general business-type aps.
>  
>  All non-trivial applications, these days, are multi-lingual. For example, 
>  many applications use a markup language (HTML, RC, etc...) to paint their 
>  GUIs. Then they use an OO language for their high-level command-and-control 
>  code (such as Ruby). Then they use a declarative language, such as SQL, to 
>  interface with their systems, such as OSs and database engines written in a 
>  C language.
>  
> > my feeling is that i hate BLOATED sluggish programs (like some Java
> > program running on older JVM's and perhaps not written in an optimal
> > way....u get the idea.)
>  
>  That's because Java was invented to take market share from C++, allegedly 
>  without introducing new risks. The actual result was a language that's 
>  harder to compile, and harder to program. Java strongly resists high-level 
>  abstractions, forcing you to write line after line and page after page of 
>  cruft just to get anything done. (No wonder the book /Refactoring/ uses 
>  Java!!;)
>  
>  Java is hostile to both the CPU and the programmer. Hence, the user suffers 
>  too.
>  
> > if i need to make a choice between fancy and efficient,
> > speed, etc., then it's an easy choice 4 me of efficient.
> > which is why i have just started w/ c++.
>  
>  No prob. Just remember that C++ is "portable OO assembler", and it is 
>  CPU-friendly and programmer-hostile.
>  
>  Ruby, by contrast, is the ultimate in programmer-friendliness. At 
>  considerable expense to the CPU!
>  
> > however, speaking to one my programmer friends who is a top level Java
> > programmer (the stuff he writes is very efficient and fancy as
> > well--great balance),
>  
>  Oh, I love it when they start lecturing you on how awesome that peesashit 
>  language is! Ay-yi-yi!
>  
> > he is telling me that 1) c++ is being phased out
> > (except 4 real low level stuff like drivers, etc.) in favor of languages
> > such as Java or Ruby.
>  
>  Incorrect. C++ is a systems language (per Bjarne Stroustrup, its author). 
>  Systems are large and long-lived. Nobody is phasing them out.
>  
>  C++ is strongly represented in the database, videogames, operating systems, 
>  scientific, and research spaces. Also, all those spaces typically "alternate 
>  hard and soft layers", by augmenting their C++ with a soft OO language. 
>  Videogames use LUA, OSs often use Perl, databases use at least SQL if not 
>  more, and so on. Ruby makes an _exquisite_ soft-layer, to provide the 
>  high-level features for a C++ application.
>  
> > he recommends i switch from learning c++ to learning
> > Java or Ruby. i wd hope to be able to choose the best path and not have to
> > switch tack in the middle as my IT capablity is not a full time activity,
> > but more of a support 4 my main one--finance.
>  
>  Learn to learn languages. I could write a program in Java if you forced me 
>  to (and with steady access to Google). Then learn all of them. You don't 
>  have to worry about running out of room in your brain!
>  
> > of course, learning curve is to be taken into consideration as well....
> >
> > 'd love some comments that might help me consider my options and pick a
> > path (c++, java or ruby) w/ a higher level of confidence..... i know that
> > people here will be biased towards Ruby, but that is fine: i want to hear
> > about it....
>  
>  You will never miss anything (except lots of entry-level jobs that nobody 
>  should want) if you avoid Java like the plague, and stick with languages 
>  that are technically superior. Put another way, the simple motivation of 
>  having a boss order you to use Java is not good enough. The motivation 
>  itself will not magically make Java more productive. It will slow you down. 
>  Some people work by the hour, so that's okay for them. If you want to be 
>  rewarded for productivity, go with the most technically advanced system you 
>  can.
>  
>  I work to the story-point. That means I estimate for my client each feature 
>  in "ideal hours", and then I charge to those point, _not_ the actual hours 
>  spent researching and coding. I don't actually give a darn what that time is 
>  (and it usually includes lots of bizarre interruptions from my females!).
>  
>  If I did that using any system besides Ruby (on Rails, and pure Test Driven 
>  Development), I would be absolutely screwed. Instead, I am able to fix the 
>  cost of each iteration, while keeping the quality as high as possible, 
>  without excessive delays.
> 

i AM reading e/y single post in the thread, believe me.
tx 4 the info.