On 06.05.2008, at 21:39, Tom Krehbiel wrote:

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your comments. Please allow me to put some of
mine below, in response. I tried to resist the temptation
to answer, as it would mean more engagement in the matter
as I think is necessary. But I could not (resist)...

Herewith I promise this to be my last response on the
topic, so everybody relax... ;-)
> 
>  It already is an extension I believe.

It is.

>  The problem with XOTcl is that (for what ever
>  reason) there hasn't been an interested party that is actively  
>  working on
>  sharing the code and getting it into the core.

You are misinformed about that. There were attempts to do so (please see
Gustaf's recent posting).

> 
> 
>  If you or someone else in the XOTcl community is willing to say  
>  "Wait, we are
>  working on an implementation of TIP#279 and it will be ready in 6  
>  months." or
>  something similar, then I say "Let's wait.". But if all you are  
>  saying is
>  "TIP#257 isn't ready.", then that seems to provide no positive out  
>  come and I
>  say "Call the vote.".

I am not in XOTcl community, strictly speaking. I am in Tcl community.
I contribute to Tcl (some core stuff and threading-extension  
maintenance)
but I do use XOTcl in our product.

The TIP 279 is functionally complete. Implementation is ready.
It is the 1.6.0 XOTcl itself.
Some say: it is complicated. I say: make it less (complicated).
Other say: code isn't adhering Tcl coding style. I say: reformat.

Really, those are by far the most objections I hear. And this can
be taken care of... The simpler (TIP257) syntax can be (and IS)
layered on top of the XOTcl dispatcher. The XOTcl must be reformatted
to follow the Tcl code style (this I do not consider a show-stopper).

Honestly, if just the coding style is preventing people to consider  
TIP279
seriously, then I volunteer to reformat it, provided package maintainers
allow me to.

> 
> 
>  It is my understanding that putting TclOO in the core will not  
>  effect any
>  existing code, including XOTcl, so on the surface the XOTcl  
>  community should
>  have any problem with putting TclOO in the core.

It is the potential of Tcl to get just about the best and most  
versatile OO
system for a dynamic language you can find. Which WORKS.  And, as far  
as I
see, the window of opportunity is getting smaller, to my  
disappointment :-(
By putting the guts of XOTcl in the core, everybody would benefit. Tcl  
would
get best-of-breed OO capabilities. XOTcl would get a solid maintenance.
It is a win-win situation.

OTOH, the TIP257 is experimental work w/o field "experience" in a real- 
world
applications. And I'm talking about mission-critical professional apps.

> 
> 
>  There has been a long standing demand by the Tcl user community for OO
>  capability in the tcl core and I am extremely grateful for those who  
>  are willing
>  to put in the time an effort to make this happen. I am also aware that
>  everything is a compromise, including language development, but  
>  progress should
>  not be halted for lack of compromise.

OK. I could buy that. Consider:

A. On one side we have a 10+ years of experience and expertise plus  
code that works
great in complex and demanding installations and (at least 1)  
commercial product.
B. On the other side we have an experimental work (stripped-down A.)  
which needs
years(?) to stabilize in terms of API(s) and overall stability.

Under this circumstances, is getting B. to be the OO-system-of-choice  
for
Tcl considered a "progress"?
Lack of compromise? Yes. Absolutely! I am absolutely compromise-less  
here.
Plain selfishness. I earn my money on Tcl. It is my vested interest to  
make
(and keep!) it the best thing arround.

I hope I did not offend you or anybody involved. If yes, I do  
apologize sincerely.
All that I'm really after is to get TIP'ers to get together and coin  
the best
OO system for Tcl, so we can be more productive, have more fun and  
earn more money!

Take care,
Zoran




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