Mark Roseman wrote:
>  As another uninvolved voice from the sidelines ... please, enough  
>  talk, more action.  Even if this discussion had something new to say  
>  (which it doesn't) instead of rehashing the same themes yet again,  
>  this pattern of being incapable of moving Tcl forward unless everyone  
>  is satisfied and nobody would be offended continues to drag Tcl and  
>  everyone around it down.

Hear, Hear!

Nobody likes dodging brickbats, so we TCTers try to operate by
consensus. Alas, there are some issues on which consensus simply
will not be achieved; I've seen this debate dragging on for thirteen
years. (I attempted to moderate a panel discussion on it at the
third Tcl/Tk conference in Toronto.) I'm thoroughly sick of it.

Alas, "expressio unuis exclusio alterius;" "to say one thing
is to exclude the others." We cannot please everybody.

There comes a time when "you aren't communicating with me"
becomes a code word for "I'm not getting my way!" A time
when it's right to say, "I *am* communicating with you.
I've *heard* your arguments, time and again. And I apologize,
but the decision is going against you." There comes a time
when "meet me halfway" degenerates into a Zenovian cycle
of "now meet me halfway again!"  There comes a time when
the right response to a question is "Asked and answered!"

Sometimes, a member of a deliberative body has to vote
according to judgment, and not according to the demands of
the constituency.  Arguably, those decisions define the
distinction between statesmanship and mere politics.
TIP 257 looks like a proposal that a majority of the
community opposes, but for which there are no better
counterproposals.

Is 257 the best possible OO implementation for Tcl?  No.

Is the whole community behind it?  No.

Will adopting it be unpopular with ITcl advocates? Of course.

Will adopting it be unpopular with XOTcl advocates? Of course.

Has anything less controversial emerged in over a
decade?  No.  Sorry, ITcl, that goes for you.  Sorry, XOTcl,
that goes for you too.

Has anything else with a credible implementation plan emerged?
No.  Not at all.  Sorry guys, I saw what happened with TIP 50.
ITcl's maintainers expected Someone Else to do all the work
of getting it into shape to go into the core.  And the expected
proposal to accord XOtcl the same footing - and ITcl was not
proposed to the exclusion of others - was not forthcoming.
And the community held the TCT to blame for the outcome.
I'm not going there again.

Will we lose users if we adopt it?  I'm sure that some Tcl'ers
feel strongly enough about OO systems that they'll run to Ruby or
something out of sheer pique. Unfortunately, I don't see any
way to keep everybody, and surely the current stagnation
loses uses too.

Is TIP 257 as it stands the last word, now and forever? Surely not.
I don't see any language in the TIP that says it's dismantling
the TIP mechanism!

Does TIP 257 deprecate other object systems?  No.  The hope is
rather to enable them, with ITcl-ng being the first, but not
the only, system to layer atop it. Certainly, I want to see Tcl
continue to be used as a platform for experimentation.

The TIP 257 prose needs significant rework - to propose TclOO
as a thing in itself rather than by comparison with XOtcl.
But the implementation stands on its own merits. Yes, it lacks
the features of ITcl and XOtcl - but that's what I want.
Tcl's advantage has always been minimalism; we can always
add features, but taking them out is a real challenge.
It certainly provides enough to do useful work with it.
For example, I have a reference implementation of TIP 308
that is well along.

TIP 257 isn't perfect, but I do not see another feasible
path forward.  There isn't another proposal on the table that
can be ready in the next release cycle.  And we've already
tried the approach of "wait until the next release, and
we'll have a better proposal for you" several times.  It
has gone nowhere.  I say, let's accept it and move on.

Writing this message has been intensely painful for me,
because I know that several community members whose
opinions I respect will feel ignored, cheated, betrayed.
And some are likely to wave this message  about for the
next decade as an example of how little the TCT cares
about the users.  I offer them my sincere apologies.

--
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference 
Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. 
Use priority code J8TL2D2. 
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone
_______________________________________________
Tcl-Core mailing list
Tcl-Core@[...].net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core